Insider Insights Podcast Interview with Sanchia Aranda AM

Episode 10: The Benefits of a Purpose-Driven and Profitable Board

Sally Parrish interviews Sanchia Aranda AM

At the time of this recording, Sanchia Aranda AM is the Chair of Scope Australia and the Inaugural Chair of the City Cancer Challenge Foundation (Chair - Geneva), she also is Deputy Chair of the Victorian Comprehensive Cancer Centre Alliance and a Director on the Dust Diseases Board of NSW. 

Sanchia is also the the former CEO of the Cancer Council Australia (until 2020) and currently a part time Professor of Health Services Research at The University of Melbourne.

In this episode Sanchia shares her thoughts on the importance of the voice of the beneficiary when determining how best to reinvest in purpose driven entities. 


Meet Sanchia on Linkedin:

Click Here to View the Podcast Interview Transcript with Non Executive Director Sanchia Aranda AM

Hello and welcome to Insider insights where you get to meet non executive directors and go inside their boardroom. Today we're joined by Professor Sencha Aranda, who was give us a unique perspective of board life, and offer up some hints and tips to help you to succeed to Sanchez, the former CEO of the Cancer Council, Australia. And she is currently the chair of scope Australia, and the inaugural Chair of the city cancer challenge foundation. She's deputy chair of the Victorian Comprehensive Cancer Center Alliance, and is the director on the dust diseases board of New South Wales. She's also a part time Professor of Health Services Research at the University of Melbourne. So join me now. And let's hear from our insider Sencha, around the Sansha. Thanks very much for joining us today.

My pleasure, Sally,

I'm really excited to unpack your story. Because there's a lot of talk right now around clinical governance, there's been a lot of attention in the media about health and community services. In general, there's been a lot of organizations doing a lot of good work. And I don't want to talk specifically about the boards that you're on and the businesses and the work that they're doing. But just to say that it is a very challenging space and very fast evolving. What are your comments around that?

I think you're right that often governance roles have focused more on financial governance and executive appointment of executives and the kinds of perhaps corporate things that probably reflect that many board directors have had backgrounds in banking and business. And that hasn't always been a good fit for particularly service oriented organizations. And my background and health meant that from an as an executive role, I was very focused on clinical governance and practice governance. And that didn't necessarily translate to the board other than through risk lens. And then in one of the boards that our chair at the moment, which is a disability provider, we're really focused on practice governance, and how do we, as a board ensure ourselves that our customers receive safe, but also effective services. And I think things like royal commissions really sharpened the appetite to do that. But the vast majority of directors don't really understand it. And so how do you create an environment that lets directors who haven't got a background in practice, really engage with the material without it being boring? And, and then perhaps not of interest? Yeah,

that makes a lot of sense. The phrase that I've heard is, it's a human dependent industry. So it's very much about the training and having safe processes and great people, it's not the kind of thing that you can automate by any means is it.

And we've had a real struggle. So you can do everything at the policy level. So you can write the policy, you can write the procedures, you can put the safeguards, and you can put the training, but that actually doesn't give boards assurance. And so our big conversation at the moment is how do you bring alive, both the things that go well, and the things that don't go so well, into the boardroom, we've got a history of doing mission storytelling at the board, but it's nearly always the positive story. And it's nearly always told through the lens of the staff. And I did a fantastic governance course last year with the Center for Social Impact on what's essentially purpose driven governance or value driven governance. And it talked a lot about how you bring beneficiary uses beneficiary rather than recipients who benefits from your service. How do you actually make those benefits tangible through the voice of the beneficiaries, and then use that as part of all the evaluation that you do of whether you're getting things right at a board level?

I love that because it is really hard for an executive management team to come to the board and share the things that aren't working well. And it's such a vital piece of the jigsaw that we need at board level. But we often say execs, you know always put in a bit of shine and gloss on whatever's going on. How do you get the true facts? How do you get to the bottom of what's really going on?

So the first thing you have to do is build an extraordinary level of trust between the board and the executive. So you have to remove the culture of blame and and create a culture of inquiry and understanding. So that's, I think, the single most important factor. And then you need to build the systems and processes that let you hear directly from two groups. One is frontline staff, because their experience of your organization is very telling in how it's working, and whether or not the things that you put in place at a policy level were actually being experienced on the ground. So no blame incident reporting and other things, talking to people about how they feel about reporting errors or mistakes or incidents that have happened. And the second most important thing, which is of equal importance is hearing directly from the beneficiaries of your service. And that can be done in a number of ways in health, it's often done through what are called customer experience committees. But actually the problem with those is that they're usually people who are way past their experience, and have become, if you like, professional voices, they're often white, they're often female. They're often of a particular socioeconomic class, how do you hear from in, in my case, and disability, people who are non verbal people who have profound and complex disabilities. And so that's a much more challenging way to get a voice. And I think that one of the things that I have seen work really effectively is having people employed who have similar life experiences and lived experience as the people whose voice you're trying to hear. And use. That was the conduit. And we recently had a presentation to our board on a paper we'd submitted to the Royal Commission on Disability, on the aspirations of our customers, and two of the customers came to the board with the individual who done the report. And there was just to hear somebody tell us about the absence of accessible dentists, so dentist that a wheelchair can get through the door, brings alive in a way in the boardroom, that a report will never do.

I absolutely love that the voice of the beneficiaries and the no blame incident report. And it sounds like you've got a really good customer focus and stakeholder engagement at board level.

I think the organization had a really strong history in being very focused on beneficiaries. The challenge for the board now is to ensure that that is one uniform across everyone who receives services. And that's often tricky. So that's, that's the test of how penetrating is it. And then to move beyond a focus on doing just enough to really thinking about, well, how does that translate in the next agenda for the organization? Because I think beneficiaries and frontline staff are critical to the process of strategic planning. And often the voices that are never heard at that table. So so that sense of aspiration is really critical. Yeah, you're so right.

Can we go to your story, I really want to dive in and hear about how you've got to this levels. So take us back to where it all began, your career began in nursing. Is that right?

Yeah, so I trained as a registered nurse in New Zealand in 1979. And I came over here on my way to England to meet my grandparents, and hadn't wanted to work in oncology, but got put there. And that began, what's been a 40 something year journey of working in cancer control in a whole variety of ways. And so very early on, I was engaged in professional organization, so our local Victorian cancer nursing group, and I was the chair that for a while, and I don't think I even knew what the word governance was then. So that would have been about 1981. And then I was on the national executive for the clinical oncological society. And I still don't think I really knew what governance was then. And then in 92, I was appointed to the board of the International Society of Nurses and cancer care. And suddenly, I learned what governance was because I was suddenly engaged in conversations in an organization that was actually barely financially viable. That was dependent on sort of a conference and had people around the table who were enthusiastic about their field but didn't have the skill set to manage the organization from a governance perspective. And so you know, that I that was my first experience and kind of rate when I was president of that organization, recreating to a skills based board, even that was made up of nurses we bought them in from different management and financial and other societies and that got me really Interested in governance. And then I started a role as a Deputy CEO, where I was struck by the absence of engagement with the board with anyone other than the CEO. And so I became very interested in how to other organizations do that. And that's when I did the company directors course and took my then CEO who thought that boards and organizations should get very rigid the course together. And that made me really interested in governance. And from there, I took on I chaired the board of another international organization where I had my first board meeting before I was chair, I asked a question about, we're being asked to sign off on a deficit budget. And I said, So what are the mitigation strategies? If the income generation plans don't come to fruition? And I was told the world trust me, we'll make it. I said, I think we need a governance framework. And right, and that was when I work with that CEO to write the first sort of governance framework for how and not for profit organization, work that's then being taken up by others. Incredible. As part of my role on that board, we spun off another organization that I'm still the chair of at the moment, till the end of this year. And so it sounds kind of happened professionally. And then when I stopped being a CEO a couple of years ago, I thought, well, actually, I've got some passion in a couple of areas. I love governance. I like the idea of how do you take an organizational frame of power organizations are required to be put together but make that really effective for boards to actually contribute to the value. And then my other passion is equity. And so that's led me to being in disability as well as in cancer. And I've found the intersections between those two things actually quite remarkable.

Yeah, absolutely. So you've got this great portfolio now, but they've all got a common theme, they're all around. Is it healthy? Or is it more specialists? And that would you say?

So I think it certainly was about, you know, cancer to begin with. And that led into the equity piece. But I think that really what it is, and my CEO role was, I've been a deputy CIO and government and then CEO and not for profit. And I, I suspect that actually the passion, interesting reflecting on this live, so yeah, forgive me if I'm crazy statements. But I think my passion is that the governance of for purpose organizations has been substantially hampered by trying to apply business and corporate logic to the way that decisions are made. And that for purpose organizations, yes, they need the rigor and the discipline of governance standards, and you need to be financially stable and other things. But profit isn't what drives your endpoints its mission, or purpose. And so how you govern is quite different to that. And so now, my next interest is to find a board that is profit driven, and really say how you bring more of the ESG thinking that is within for purpose organizations, to look at how those for profit organizations can be more contributing to society. And I think some are doing it really well. But in the main, particularly in Australia, there's not a lot of corporate social responsibility being lived out. And so I think it's actually about how can purpose be used to drive better organizations for employees, beneficiaries and shareholders?

Yeah, I love that. You know, we could talk for hours and compare and contrast for profit and for members. But we often hear a criticism of not for profits that they're not commercial enough. And I love your take on that, that it's not the same commercial framework. It's the same governance rigor that we need. But it's for a whole it's a whole different lens, isn't it? Like the commercial boards? I've got the four Ps that profit the people, the planet and the purpose and the not for profit have still got the planet, the people and the purpose but how they achieve that is completely

different. And I think the idea of profit in that context is still applicable, but it's to actually how do you reinvest in purpose, not having distributed to shareholders. So, no, I, the disability sector is a great one at the moment. So the vast majority of providers of supported independent living in Australia are going backwards, and very few had any surplus in the last financial year, it doesn't make sense. And, you know, the organization I'm involved in, has a great privilege in having a financial legacy that will see us over this hump. And we have to apply as much rigor to the creation of financial sustainability, we cannot rest on our legacy investment, just bet to prop up the gaps in the funding system at the moment. So we have to become very efficient. And that's because our board has said, we see this as a once in a generation opportunity to make an investment that produces step change in the lives of people with disability. And to do that we cannot waste it on just filling out bottom line, we have to become efficient, and so that it's still the same tests of performance and financial sustainability that have to be applied. They're just being done for a very different endpoint that you can, I think it's much easier to mobilize a board and executive around a purpose objective than a profit object. Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. And that's a great point there, because one of the mistakes we see executives make, and you're a shining example of why not to do this, but one of the mistakes we see is that they think that the first step to their board career is getting experience. And the way to do that is to jump on a not for profit. And what we see is a lot of you know, high performing professionals that move from a standing start on to a not for profit board, it's never going to be a board of the size of the organizations you're on right now. It's always a small local calls type Community Interests project. And they get onto those boards. And it doesn't give them any training or experience whatsoever for the real world. Because it's not how we do things on a commercial board. And it's not how we do things on an established and well run not for profit board, either. And this, this kind of autopilot move that we make from executive to volunteer for a board and that will launch a board role. I think it's a very selfishly made move. I think it's all about, you know, what am I going to get out of this rather than what can I contribute to this cause? And how can I give back. And I love that you have that missing piece that I'm always talking about. And that's the passion for it. So I don't care where you volunteer, if you're going to volunteer for your first step. But make sure it's something that you love that you've got a lot of experience in that you can contribute, they can make a difference. Because these, these commitments are long commitments, their three year commitments, they're long board meetings, particularly when there aren't that many resources in the business, you tend to be the resource. And it's a big investment in time and energy. So I love that you've always led with your purpose, your passion, and, and you can see how that has kind of fueled the rest of your career, you know, one step has led to another whereas if I jump off of an executive role into a not for profit board that has no alignment that I'm not passionate about, well, what happens at the end of that 10 year, you know, I'm still not knowing where I'm going or what I'm doing, you know, so

it's I'm, I get a little, you know, that sort of sense of a shiver up your back when people use the GiveBack concept. I think there's a lot of good sides to that. So I've got a lot of skills. I'd like those skills to be utilized and accessible. That's fantastic. But in my experience, having worked with a number of board directors, who are there to give back, is it a particularly not for profits, they come with a lack of respect for the skill set in the not for profit sector for purpose driven leadership. And I remember speaking to somebody at Harvard University who used to run a lot of courses on governance, and basically tried to make not for profits for profit type organizations. And then they developed another course on not for profit leadership because they realized they needed to undo the damage that had been done by trying to you know, 40, wow, bankers and others on to organizations and I feel like one of the really critical things in that I can give you a really tangible example in a previous role. There's been a really strong argument or disagreement about whether or not an organization in cancer should or should not support a costs raise the right campaign, which is the, you know, the job seeker rate, which is used for sickness benefits. And this is in the context of people in the lowest socio economic group having a 37% higher mortality from cancer than those in the highest socio economic group. And we were hearing stories about families who were choosing to eat once a day versus by the medication, my heart. And so there was a whole debate for it, and in fact, was ultimately lost in that the organization didn't, as a whole, support the campaign because it was saying that it would be against our best interests with our political masters in government. And so that's a situation where you care more about the money you might get for something in a program, then a principle or purpose about the beneficiaries of what you do. And I think that for purpose organizations must be really clear. That purposes First, and we're having a similar conversation at the moment about to what extent do we take a position as an organization, on a First Nations voice to Parliament, given the terrible health, disability, everything inequalities, if you are a for purpose, organization, in any space related to these outcomes? Should you not see this as part as reconciliation? And why would you not? And I think those are really important conversations for boards to hear that seems not to be a problem for the big ones. The big profit organizations just take a stand because they doesn't affect them politically. Yeah, but it can

for not for profits. Yeah, I can really see how that could roll on and impact the organization, much, much deeper conversation than, you know, just the balance sheet.

Yep. And so being clear that purposes for financial sustainability, obviously, is first because you bet, you can't go broke, you can't not benefit any beneficiary, if you're insolvent. Ultimately, purpose all things being equal, should drive most of your decision making.

There's a lot of gray matter at board level, right. But generally speaking, a for profit organization, has the black and white of the, you know, the financials, are they balanced? So are we making enough profit? You know, are our shareholders loving us? And are we paying them enough? And are they paying us enough? But for purpose, I should imagine that it's much, much greater, because, you know, ultimately, what is for the benefit of the member? Because, you know, one members interests are different from another members interests, whereas shareholders are all there for profit, right? We all want the returns. But, you know, how does the needs of a white male in a wheelchair differ from a person of color in another state? It's really hard, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. And I think that, you know, many organizations that are for purpose have come through that sort of membership, often. So in disability, it's often parent groups. And ultimately, over time, as some of those organizations have grown into 100, half a billion dollar type of organizations, what they need at the board level is very different than a committee management five group of parents. And managing that transition carefully is, I think, really, really important. And finding a way that creates a voice for a point of engagement for people who would have traditionally been members that are more about the wider network, both the beneficiaries and their interested others. And seeing that as part of that separate to the delivery of the organization's long term viability and impact on purposes is critical. And lots of organizations are going through that transition, as they move away from traditional membership structures, to modern governance structures with skills based boards, but not wanting to lose a connection with the people who established them because you want to keep that. That voice of purpose and experience. You want to honor it at the same time.

Yeah, so much. Just think about that. So, so many great reflections.

We've been having that conversation about. So as a disability provider, how do we sit the ambition for lived experience presence around the table? And in the past, I think that sort of lived experience presence has been told couldn't say you have a person with a disability on your board. And it doesn't really matter whether or not that got governance skills. So we want both to be one people with lived experience, to also be supported to develop governance skills, and bring those together. And we've been actually asking the question of whether we should say, the quota. And should we have a five year ambition to be that our bodies 30 40% people with lived experience? Yeah. And you need an ambition in that space to be true.

Yeah. And I find one of the barriers to entry, as you often see on a board vacancy must have GIC days, I must be a graduate of the Australian Institute, the company directors, and I just I have this professional opinion that there are people that are being kept out of boardrooms that have a lot to offer and a lot of value there that could learn that governance as they go. And it's such a big jump from here to GIC. I mean, it's a massive, massive, massive step. So if more organizations were to provide pathways for these people to come on to boards, where they can learn governance in the chair, and then get qualified as they go, I think it would just open up the boardroom.

I know I think I 100% agree. So we support our board directors to do the course if they haven't done it. So we don't select on that basis. Brilliant. And the reason for that is if you've particularly if you're looking for people from from a disability background, people who are in the cancer world, people who've had a cancer experience may have had career disruption, they've got you know, people who perhaps have lower socio economic group, the 10,000 plus dollars to do the course is not accessible. So you must actually, first of all commit to what levels of diversity and capabilities you want across your board. And then you find ways to support that if you're true to that ambition. You don't you don't just expect people to come ready made. So we've just made some appointments to our committees as a starting point, to get more representation of lived experience. We've appointed to people with disability, we're hoping to have two more, we're still doing the interviews, and use that as a training ground. And not just for our own board. Because it might be that in fact, we put their names forward and recommend them to other providers or other organizations, but it's about what's the opportunities that you're creating. And if those individuals can be directed somewhere else, that's fine, too. It's still about the relative.

Oh, God, I just want to acknowledge you for that. That's such incredible work to to give opportunities on committees so people can learn how the boards work, you know, how, how do they operate? What's the, you know, the cadence on these boards? How often do they meet? What's the workload around this and get a real feel for it before they dive in, and the fact that you're willing to train these people up and share those resources. It's just it's something that you don't see often enough in our industry.

I think the mantra and disability is all about aspirations and opportunities. And I'm very strongly of the view that you can't wish for that for others. You can say it and then expect others to live it out as you need it. From the boardroom to the frontline. Yes. All into that belief. I mean, I don't know if you in the disability if you listen to listen, Eva, which is Dylan all cuts podcast that, you know, one of the first episodes that I listened to was a woman who's essentially in a wheelchair, but like quite immobile, she can speak but she's a lawyer who runs her own law firm in South Australia, and it's a possibility possibilities are all about opportunity, and often privilege. And so how do we make sure that everybody gets that opportunity?

Absolutely. Let's just ask a few questions about use and share while you're on. I'm really keen, there's a conversation at the moment about generalists and can they be too broad in their skill set? So it's, it's absolutely brilliant to have one that specialized in one field for so long and gone so deep. What do you think the opportunities are for the specialists in your field?

So I'm in so obviously, I cut my governance teeth in cancer, and that's been incredibly important for me Personally, because it is something that I'm passionate about, I've devoted a career to it and had the opportunity to have an ongoing role in shaping the future of the field is great. And so what I do in the specialist field is just really encourage the next generation of people coming through to find the opportunities to be at the tables where decisions are made. So rather than talking about governance, I talk about decision making bodies, and that you get your first experiences of governance, often through that lens of a table where decisions are made. And that often it can feel, I think one of the mistakes that I see people make is they go on to everything, much of which is talk fest, not really getting anywhere, just in order to be at the table. Whereas I've just been encouraging a colleague to Marie Kondo her commitments. Do it with your wardrobe, but Blitz, do it with your committees, you're on all these committees, which ones are the ones where you're able to really influence the decisions that are made, and delegate the to some of your other colleagues, I think, starting with decision making tables, gets you noticed, and leads to wider opportunities. And that's, I think, been my in cancer control. It's all been always been about finding a way to make a difference on a wider platform. And then the question is, can you be too specialized? And do those skills translate? And I think they really do in me, so that the generals governance skills really translate. So you know, I've got, I've developed lots of skills in, you know, how do you pick good governance spent roles, criteria for new directors, you know, thinking about the balance of generalists versus specialists. But I think there's also some things across sectors that translate. So in the equity agenda that I've had in cancer translates really nicely into disability. But so do a whole lot of the connections that I've made in areas like advocacy and policy development, and those kinds of things where the health economics, the skills translate, and I've been able to make connections for our executive team, with people who don't have anything to do with disability, but have a lot to value add to disability if they had a, an entry in

Yeah, what a great opportunity to learn from other people in the field with skills just slightly outside of your own

little I'm one I'm learning Yes. Yeah. Because I think that's the other thing about that give back thing is the gift back thing that makes me anxious is the idea that you've got it and you're going to give it to someone else versus is to weigh you know, I have learned as much from the disability sector about the criticality of self determination and lived experience and, you know, a whole range of things that I would never have thought about, that are now valuable, really valuable parts of who I am as a person and how I live my life, which is critical to

so your role truly has shaped you. On paper, it looks like you've had this natural kind of progression from one to the other. Was there any kind of standout moment you remember as being the the board break the break into the boardroom for you.

So probably the UICC role where I had that experience of Intel to trust me, was probably the first experience of an organization that was going through a transformation that was truly a transformation of its governance, and how it operated. And part of that was also about bringing it directly back to the it was a membership organization and doing it so that was probably the point at which I thought I could see myself doing more of this and would like to seek opportunities. And then the other I guess the next thing was when I gave up being a CEO, I won't probably wasn't quite ready, but I wanted to come back to Melbourne and because my kids are here, and I kind of looked for another CEO role, and I got so I have a really good mentor in this area. And they encouraged me to really think about a board portfolio. So the the advice was, choose something that you're really strong in. So that was the sort of cancer thing, something that you really feel passionate about. So that was the sort of equity and disability piece, and then choose something that will stretch your capabilities. And so the disability organizations done that as well. So that you kind of see your V adventure into not any day as a learning experience for you who for rounding off your governance capability, so that you're learning, which is the opposite of that giving back thing, right? Yes, I love that. deliberatively thinking about the next, from the perspective of how that develops you as a better governor,

and that reframe, seeing it as a learning experience takes away all the negative self belief and the imposter syndrome and oh, my god, am I good enough for this? Can I do it? Because it, it's just lighter, right? This is so that I can learn. And I love that what a great reframe, absolutely love that.

And it was very helpful, because I actually did get quite a lot of approaches from particularly small enough for profits, and it was quite difficult to say no, because that would have just been filling up the space as opposed to really thinking about, if I'm going to have a 10 year contribution to make in this space, I need to be better at it. And I am now thinking that I'm probably ready to take up a small not for profit. Having really embarked on a learning journey that's put me in a better position to be a better governor for that.

I love that story. And there's so many things in there that are parallels from the work that I'm doing with clients. So turning down the wrong role is absolutely important. The wrong role is a shortcut to failure, right? If you if you're not planning out your entire career, and you're just taking the next role that comes up, because someone's asked you, and we get asked a lot we asked a lot to join, particularly not for profit boards. But I also have a thing that we talked about getting onto a not for profit board as your first step. It's not that I'm against volunteering, I'm really not. And there's so many causes that need our support here in Australia. I really feel like you build your career, you build your board skills, and you give back at the end of your career. That's a true give him back pace. You know, when you've developed your skills, you've got the experience, you've got the contacts, that's when you're in a position to give back. Not in your first role.

No, I think I think that's exactly. I agree with that. And I think it's also dovetails into the question of should no for profit boards be remunerated? So that's a tricky, really tricky question. If I use my disability example, it's a multi, nearly half a billion dollar organization, I probably spend between one and one and a half days a week on it. Yeah, I could, if it wasn't remunerated, I'm not sure that it would even be possible to put that level of effort in. Back in the days before it was remunerated, which is pre me. The meetings were always at night, because people were working. And that was really unfair on the executive, they're tired, right?

They've done a day's work before they even get there.

And they've been expected to service their governors through the night. And you know, those sorts of things. So we've moved all our board meetings into the date on you have that conversation with new directors, how are you going to commit the time? And you can do that when you remunerate? Yeah, much harder to extract that commitment. Yeah. And everybody's on a committee, which also is, you know, meeting time. And so I do think it is worth, you know, obviously, depending about the size, but once you start getting into the level of governance compliance that is required through the ACNC, these days, as well as other areas, you can't do this without seeing it as a job. Yes. It's not actually, even if you're a volunteer, it's not like handing out soup at a soup kitchen or, you know, doing that sort of volunteering, there are obligations and personal risks associated with these roles. That mean, you have to commit the time to the role but also to the learning

and they don't go away. Right. You might have one meeting a month but the other 29 days of the month, you're still thinking about this board, you're still reading about this for just still send emails, it's never

I speak to the CEO or the company secretary pretty much every day and you know, spend one whole day Really, so it's, you know, haven't quite set up my own office. Id, right. It's your job to run the organization, but you've got to be accessible

Sanchia I've really enjoyed today, you give me so much food for thought, I've got a page of notes here that I'm going to have a real brainstorm around, I really want to acknowledge your contribution to the cancer cause we didn't talk about some of the awards that you've won. So let's just finish by acknowledging some of the awards that you've achieved through your career.

Yeah, I think I mean, somebody the other day was in something with me and said, at the end of it, oh, I knew her but I didn't know she was famous. And, and I think, and I think the awards, so particularly the international ones, so the international recognition, and in those things, in particular, is, it's a really good acknowledgement of the contribution that you've made. But actually, for me, it's always been about seeking those opportunities to make a difference. And when you get recognized for that, that's great. But hopefully what that does is also encourages others to follow the path. And to see, I've never thought about work, as you know, Monday to Friday, nine to five, when you're in something about which you are passionate. You You do it whenever it occurs. And you know, my international stuff is usually like in there like 5am to 9am board meetings, or I'm always up at 11 o'clock at night or so you you do that because you're passionate. And then if somebody acknowledges that that's just sort of extra pricing.

Yeah. I've really enjoyed spending the time with you today. Thank you so much for coming on and recording this episode of insider insights today.

My pleasure, Sally.

You've been listening to Insider insights with Sally Parrish. Insider Insights is the place to meet non executive directors and go inside their boardroom to learn from their experience. We hope you've discovered some great learning today that you can apply to your board role. We look forward to your company on the next episode of insider insights.

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